OK About This Guild Leadership Stuff

[Twystyd]

SH and everyone in here -

1) Do we agree/disagree with Pigvigs post?

2) Do we want to place caps on the top and bottom end of the membership?

3) Do we need to restructure the DoG? This is functioning as the officer board and people can still chat on the other boards.

4) Do we need to purge some of the curent mcurrenthip?

Any thoughts?

[Rhuac]

From the look of it the only way we're going to get anywhere in PvE (and this is with the current lax membership guidelines) is to get strict on raid attendance. If we're going to have so many people, we need to be doing raid encounters, not 5-15 manning every instance to death.

I'm for whatever we decide, but if people want officers to step up and lead like in these 'structured' guilds, then we need to take the stand, 'what an officer says goes.' It shouldn't take someone yelling at the top of their lungs to get people to listen.

Conversly, we could keep our non-obligatory stance on raid attendance, and we let everyone know not to expect it when they join, and so when raids don't happen, nobody can be miffed.

[Bulor]

DoG leadership and Other leadership are totally different.

i also don't give a hoot tho=P

[Keabit Guinness]

The problem with the title of officer is that in BWC, and officer is not necessarily a leader. I am not a leader when it comes to video games. I was invited to DoG and officer chat because I am/was a good team guy i guess. Maybe it was because I was around for a while. What ever the reason I am a member of the DoG. But not in WoW, which actually kinda pissed me off. But thats another story.

Like I said, I'm not an officer in WoW. But what do we want with our leaders. Is Mexal and officer and have access to the officer chat? After hearing about some tirades he has had, I don't think he should be. I know I came to WoW later than most, but that doesn't mean my loyalty is not here.

Lets face it. Many of you guys know these new people. Where as I have NO IDEA who they are. They don't seem to really help anyone but themselves and close friends. The only people who have helped me are old BWC members. Supreem, Phineas, Adidia, and of course Eirene (god bless you!). There are more and maybe I can't remember everyone.

I guess rank would have to be changed. Is the officer access in WoW for "friends" and a place to chat like it was in DAOC? Or are we going to get some structure to this. I have no problem not being an officer if there is decent leadership.

You all know me. I help everyone when I can. I think that the guild has gotten pretty big lately. I'm not sure if we should boot people. But I would definitely say stop the enrollment right now.

[Augomatic]

I don't play WoW, and don't know what is really going on other than what I've read here, so feel free to take everything with a grain of salt.

I have however, been a member of a wide mix of guilds/clans/tribes etc on the interweb, and ranged from being a peon to a leader, and these are a few things I've learned:

1) Decide what the team is about. If its about friendship, great. If it's about being competitive to some level, figure out that level and go with it. Don't expect both unfortunately. If your gonna let someone's 13 year old cousin join who plays 2 hours a week, don't be too surprised when they don't heal you on some high level raid.

2) Be uniform with what the team is about. If its to be competitive, and someone wants said 13 year old in the guild, just say no. If some old time member isn't playing anymore, then they can be removed from the guild. Removing someone from the guild shouldn't be viewed as some sort of slight. Its not like it prevents you from talking. Heck, make an "alt" guild for these types of people. It goes the other way too. If its gonna be about friendship and not uber PvE raiding, then boot the guy who no one is friends with and is just after the loot.

3) Democracy in ideas, Facism in practice. I think its good to get opinions on the direction the guild is going and input, but when it comes right down to it, the best GMs I've ever seen are downright assholes. Problem is if you worrying about being nice, you'll spare the person involved, but the rest of the guild will suffer.

4) Make joining the guild difficult. Regardless of whether or not you go with the more friendly angle, or competitive angle, make it hard to get into the guild. I remember getting into BWC in DAoC. I had to group with people, get to know them, etc. When I was let in, I had invested time into BWC, and wanted to improve it. If you give someone something for free, they'll treat it that way. If its a friendly thing, you don't have to make it some uber test or something, just have them write an essay on why they want to join or something cheesy like that.

Whichever way you guys go with it is fine by me, just wanted to offer some suggestions. In the meantime, I'll be still in DAoC talking to the /as of 3 people, 2 of which are bots ;P

[Mourningblade]

I've raided with Mexal and Pigvig and alot of other folks and I can see their concerns, But...

I'm just not as fired up to do the whole structured guild thing. I'll admit, I'm lazy. But I like the casual atmosphere we have had in the past. It's not always the optimum for raiding and getting all the leet gear, but I like it.

We have tried to do the certain night raids, but it never really caught on in the past. Maybe its time to try that again.... Another factor is the different time zones and play times we all have.

The thing about raids, I just don't have the patience (or organizational skills) to corral enough people to run the instances. I also don't have a key to ubrs or even scholo.
Also, the majority of the old schoolers have been lvl 60 for awhile and have run every instance about 30 times apiece...this also makes it hard to get fired up... and the newer folks are still working on quests that most of us would rather not screw around with, due to having finished them and knowing the reward is useless npc sell junk.

I don't have a problem with making Pig an officer, he has led alot of raids and seems to know his shit. Mexal is still learning the higher lvl instances and has an annoying habit of bringing lvl 55-58 priests along that aggro everything from a mile away. At some point in the future I think Mexal might make a decent officer, but not quite yet.

I guess my biggest thing is, I spend all day in a shitty office, yelling at shitty people, and when I get home, I'm looking to maximize my enjoyment, and leading just isn’t my thing.


Maybe start a poll for what night of the week should be raid night. Maybe do UBRS a couple times one week, then do scholo or strat the next.

Alright, thats enough of a rant out of me

[Twystyd]

The only people who have helped me are old BWC members. Supreem, Phineas, Adidia, and of course Eirene (god bless you!).

Thanks for the props for getting you your bags and asking if you need help weekly asshole. Don't take the non-officer thing personal man, I was promoted at level 30'ish. SH wants to make sure people are playing this server first.

I think DoG needs to be restructured. We have 4-5 forums we can shoot the breeze. As much as I love most of you the first people that need to go are those not in WoW or not in the guild. After that we trim down to about 12 people that are active progressing the guild. If you don't have time...you don't have time thats understandable. It's not a punishment.

Agreed, we either need to become more strict or tell everyone to head to a more military guild. I for one hope we don't become another ED/Redux skilless social zerg though because that is where we are heading. No offense to those guilds -

[Keabit Guinness]

Law, I sooo didin't mean to leave you out. I was a little fired up and in a hurry at the time.

My apologies ass hole!

[Winke]

I dont mind leading I just can't stand getting people together. That's why PV and i co-lead. I get tells in game to lead up for other guilds who are organized and have their people ready to go. Thats the way i like it.

Winke

[Sirion]

The only reason you guys are headed towards a more ED/Redux type of guild, is the total lack of anything needed to join the guild and the total lack of kicking assholes and morons out of the guild, when they are morons and assholes.

I love you guys, but you have recruited alot of fucking total newbs in this guild because of the lack of requirements to join. Everyone has their own personal view on "good players." So when someone says, "Hey, I've played with this person alot they are good, invite them." that's not an absolute indicator that said person is good, or even average, it's just an indication that said person is a friend of and consistant in game companion of the person that brought them to BWC.

My guild isn't recruiting anyone under level 55 anymore. They are no use to us, they can't raid with us, and they can't do anything that we can't already do. The ONLY exception we MIGHT make would be for mages (since we lack) and even then they are made aware right when they join that they aren't getting leveled, they aren't getting run through instances on a daily basis, and they aren't always going to even be able to bid on loot they want if one of our primary mages is online. I think my guild is an awesome mix of good casual friends and competetive players. We were the first people with a key to UBRS, first people to take down Rend, first people to kill the General. We all are in good gear (for people that can't do raid instances), everyone follows orders, and everyone plays well (some certainly need more practice than others, but on a whole, I think that our players are certainly above average), but most importantly, we are all good friends, most of us RL friends.

You don't need to specify one type or the other, but you do need to make sure that you are looking for quality. When you have quality in your membership your guild might be smaller, but everyone will be more friendly with each other, everyone will want to do more together and when you actually do add people, it's because you know they will fit in and they are also of good enough quality that several people wanted them in. I'll speak from personal experience with my guild right now on the same server, I recruit people based on likability first, skill second. We can train a cool newb that's willing to learn and adapt to assist me or how to heal/cure or when to attack and what spells to use in PvP, and if they seriously CAN'T be trained, then I can kick them. We can never train an asshole to not be an asshole.

I think the best bet for BWC is to do like you did in DAoC. Be a guild of friends that all strive do look fucking good, but while having fun in the process. All the camping we used to do in Alb at keeps, all the fun we had guild RvRing, none of that shit would have happened if the guild was run by an asshole dictator and everyone feared for their place in the guild, because they would be more concerned on being the "best" rather than having fun with their guildmates.

No offense, but you guys are not VV. You will never be VV. My guild, is not VV. It will never be VV. There is nothing wrong with that. If you have members that want to do 40 man raids with the guild all day long, then send them to a place where that can happen, because it's not in this guild, and currently it's not in our alliance. Maybe soon now that DW is getting up there, but the bottom line is, this guild wasn't awesome (when I was in it) because it has mass, it was awesome because everyone liked each other. If you guys are losing that aspect of the guild (which I honestly think you are after talking to several old schoolers in the guild) then maybe, just maybe, what you need to do is cut the assholes you guys don't like, re-establish your friendships with the people you DO like, realize it's not a crime for people to group with alliance-mates, and I'm sure you will have a happier, healthier, and much stronger guild as an outcome.

Please note, I'm not saying that you guys shouldn't play together, because you should, and I'm not saying that being friends with someone excuses them from sucking at the game, because it doesn't. But when you guys are all on good terms with each other, and all of you play together (and with other good players like the DW guys, and the Reso guys) your membership quality will improve and over time your whole guild will get better as a result.

[Amit]

ive said my piece in the main thread

[Hall]

Raiding stresses me the fuck out, but ima give it a shot tommrow see how it goes, They want ppl to work together they gonna get it even if i manage to piss off the entire raid

[Twystyd]

Law, I sooo didin't mean to leave you out. I was a little fired up and in a hurry at the time.

My apologies ass hole!

LOL, I'm just giving you shit man no worries. That's about the only use I have here.

My guild isn't recruiting anyone under level 55 anymore.

That is what I put in the main thread Sirion and I completely agree. Why we recruit people that are going to need 3-6 months to level is beyond me. I would also cap the min level to force people to play and weed out some of the weaker members that shouldn't be leveling on a PvP server. No one expects people to be ub3z0r but we do need to ditch the greens. Just raise the cap 5 levels per weekend until 40 at least.

We really can't do much until we get a handle on the roster.

[barbos]

Good to see some action.

Your either going to have to become an elite guild, or a laid back guild of friends. But you can only accomodate one or the other.

[Supreem]

well the den of gimps has never been an "officer board" its been a board for old school members and people who make up the core of BWC. I think DoG shoudl stay the way it is. Its a forum for the core members to discuss shit facing the guild without every noob member throwing in their 2c. Most of us in here care about what happens in the guild and our say means alot more than your average bwc member but we dont necesarily want to be leaders. Keep DoG if you want make another board for WoW officers IMO.

As for guild leadership, it has ALWAYs been a problem in BWC. Think back to DAOC when kim or dwayne werent online shit did not get done thats just the way it was (this was before you stepped up Bulor) and it was ok back then because SH played alot and Eirene wasnt sick of pve raids yet.

I'm not sure how to solve this problem.... I think most people would rather not be a leader, myself included. But if it needs to be done, I'll do my best once I'm 60 to assume a leadership role but right now at 43 I can't really help all the 60s that are bitching and moaning get their 1337 gear.

I think the main thing we need to do is trim down the guild and get rid of the gimps. I also think this open recruitment shit has to end. I think our members need to realize that we acknoledge there is a problem and we are trying our best to fix it. And the ones that keep bitching need to shut the fuck up or be booted cause its just killing our guild morale as a whole.

my 2c