@Sirion

[Fardomar]

I have a friend who just started a rogue. I know the talents just changed with the last patch but can you recommend a good rogue build. Feel free to wait until the talent calc is updated on the vault to answer. Thanks

[Sirion]

The answer here will totally depend on how he likes to play his Rogue in all honesty. I know someone that loves the subtlety tree, personally I go for combat/assassination and dabble in subtlety. I think going full out in any tree as a Rogue is a mistake personally. There are only two talents that I'm really interested in, Seal Fate, and the one that has a % to add a bubble if you evade. I would probably sacrifice the combat tree if I could find a way to make a good template using both of them. That's like a %chance to add a bubble everytime you get a crit on a styled attack, and a %chance to get a bubble every time you evade an attack. I'll mess around with it and get back to you, I'm not sure how well I can test right now, supposedly there is something wrong with the miss rate on Rogues (moreso than other melee characters, which probably has to do with the 24% inert chance to miss dual wielding).

[Fardomar]

What's the name of the talent that adds a bubbles for evading?

[Sirion]

It's called Setup, it requires 25 points in the subtlety tree
Seal Fate is the other one, it requires 25 points in the assassination tree, basically that means I can only get one of the two. Assassination also gets you Cold blood in the process, so if I had to choose a skill, I would probably pick the one that gives combo points off of crits on styled attacks.

[Sirion]

I went to get my template off my char and then I realized that the servers are down, and won't be back up until tomorrow night. Once they come back up I can post what I use now, and maybe fool around with it a bit to exclude some of the combat tree and include Seal Fate and Cold Blood. I think it will be easy enough to get rid of dagger mastery, riposte, and dual wield mastery honestly.

[Nese]

Do you really think that the abilities that get you combo points are that good that you need to load up on em?

Shouldn't Improve Evicerate + Ghostly Strike + Setup be enough?
I keep looking over the trees and I can't seem to justify tweaking it to get Seal Fate AND Setup. Hell, I can't even figure out how to get Blade Fury any more since it has a prereq of Adren. Rush (which makes no since btw. Having a prereq that is FURTHER down the tree than the skill itself).

I find myself leaning toward the passive abilities that will increase damage or critical damage like Duel Wield Spec, Lethality, and Oppurtunity.

Here is what I came up with for a Evicerate+Ghostly+Setup template. I'm sure it can be tweaked some. I will also post a Lethality template after.

Subtlety Mastery
Rapid Concealment
Rank 1/5
Reduces the cooldown of your Stealth ability by 1 secs.

Master of Deception
Rank 5/5
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4).

Camouflage
Rank 5/5
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Elusiveness
Rank 5/5
Reduces the cooldown of your Evasion, Vanish, and Blind abilities by 1.3 min.

Opportunity
Rank 5/5
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

Ghostly Strike
Rank 1/1
50 Energy
Instant cast 20 sec cooldown
5 yd range
A strike that deals 125% weapon damage and increases your chance to dodge by 15% for 7 sec. Awards 1 combo point.

Improved Vanish
Rank 3/3
Increases your movement speed while vanished by 30%.

Setup
Rank 3/3
Gives you a 45% chance to add a combo point to your target after dodging their attack.

Subtlety Total: 28

Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge
Rank 3/3
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 secs.

Improved Sinister Strike
Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Improved Backstab
Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.

Precision
Rank 5/5
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

Improved Sprint
Rank 2/3
Reduces the cooldown of your Sprint ability by 60 secs.

Dual Wield Specialization
Rank 5/5
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.

Combat Total: 20

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate
Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Assassination Total: 3
Total
Total Points Spent: 51
Level Required: 60

This template gets you Ghostly Strike which will increase your chance to evade, followed by Setup with gets you a combo point every time you evade. It also included Opportunity that will increase your from behind specials (weather you use em as an opening or after a Gouge). One more point of note is Improved Sprint. Since you can sprint while stealthed this is a great escape/movement utility ability.

[Nese]

Here is a Lethality/Cold Blood/Seal Fate template.

Subtlety Mastery
Rapid Concealment
Rank 1/5
Reduces the cooldown of your Stealth ability by 1 secs.

Master of Deception
Rank 5/5
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4).

Camouflage
Rank 5/5
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Subtlety Total: 11

Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge
Rank 3/3
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 secs.

Improved Sinister Strike
Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Lightning Reflexes
Rank 2/5
Increases your Dodge chance by 2%.

Improved Backstab
Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.

Combat Total: 10

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate
Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Malice
Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness
Rank 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Improved Slice and Dice
Rank 3/3
Increases the duration of your Slice and Dice ability by 45%.

Relentless Strikes
Rank 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality
Rank 5/5
Increases the damage done by your critical strikes by 50% when using the Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability.

Cold Blood
Rank 1/1
Instant cast 3 min cooldown
When activated, your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate is guaranteed a critical strike.

Improved Deadly Poison
Rank 4/5
Increases the chance to apply Deadly Poison to your target by 12%.

Seal Fate
Rank 5/5
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.

Assassination Total: 30
Total
Total Points Spent: 51
Level Required: 60

This one can totally be tweaked to add in Ghostly Strike and/or Hemmorage if you want to get the full use out of Lethality. You'd be able to sacrifice some of the skills in the Combat Tree to gain the points needed very easily. These are just some of the templates that I've worked up. I also have a Combat heavy template if your interested.

[Sirion]

If you are using the talent calc that's on the WoW vault right now, the Rogue talent trees are not up to date with the current patches. According to the talent tree however, Setup only has a 45% chance at level 3 to add a bubble, whereas Seal Fate has a 100% chance at level 5. Also, the assassination tree is going to increase your overall damage over time, whereas the subtlety tree is just going to make it easier for you to escape/use stealth openers. The only skills that I think are pretty much required from the subtletly tree at this point, are MoD 5/5 and some points into Camo 3/5 is probably enough.

It sucks that they rewoekd the talents the way they did, the template I was using had adren, cold blood, imp. sap 3, dual wield mastery, and dagger mastery all included.

[Nese]

I'm using the one at thottbot which got updated just before the servers went down. I'm sure I'll check again once the servers come up on sunday.

But I'm curious as to why you think that skills that add combo points are worth the investment? Pop SnD and you attack fast enough to whip out 5 points like woah.

[Sirion]

Popping SnD doesn't do anything for the 1ish sec cooldown on all of your styles, and it also doesn't increase the rate at which you gain energy. Even if you have adren. up, you can't just spam the SS button over and over again and do as many as you can in a second, because you can't perform a SS while you are doing an SS, and the "action" of doing an SS takes like .5-1 sec...

[SuperHelix]

is that WoW drugs?

[Sirion]

Two templates I would consider using:

Master of Deception
Rank 5/5
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4).

Camouflage
Rank 3/5
Increases your speed while stealthed by 9%.

Subtlety Total: 8
Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike
Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Lightning Reflexes
Rank 3/5
Increases your Dodge chance by 3%.

Deflection
Rank 2/5
Increases your Parry chance by 2%.

Precision
Rank 5/5
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

Combat Total: 12
Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate
Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Remorseless Attacks
Rank 2/5
Gives you a 40% damage bonus on your next attack after killing an opponent.

Malice
Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness
Rank 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Relentless Strikes
Rank 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality
Rank 5/5
Increases the damage done by your critical strikes by 50% when using the Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability.

Vile Poisons
Rank 5/5
Increases the damage dealt by your poisons by 15%.

Cold Blood
Rank 1/1
Instant cast 3 min cooldown
When activated, your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate is guaranteed a critical strike.

Seal Fate
Rank 5/5
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.

Assassination Total: 30


This template is good because every critical hit on any special move you do adds a point. The reason that getting free combo points is good is because it makes your character MUCH more energy efficent, and you can do CONSIDERABLEY more damage/energy. If you have to spend time doing 5 SS's before you can use a 5 point evis. and I only have to do 3 (if I got crits on all of them) then I'm tossing my 5 point evis out something like 5 seconds before you are. If we both open with CS that crits, you will need three SS's I will only potentially need one. You have to realize that my Rogue's chance to crit is roughly 21% right now, that gives me a 21% chance to add a combo point on any style that adds a combo point. Also don't forget, if evis crits (guarenteed with Cold Blood, which can be a real lifesaver, and adds the combo point via the 60% chance to add a combo point, you will not only get one added, but two, AND you have a 100% chance to regain 25 energy, which means you can SS almost immediatly afterwards.

The other setup I would use looks more like this:

Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception
Rank 5/5
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4).

Camouflage
Rank 3/5
Increases your speed while stealthed by 9%.

Subtlety Total: 8
Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike
Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Lightning Reflexes
Rank 3/5
Increases your Dodge chance by 3%.

Deflection
Rank 5/5
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

Precision
Rank 5/5
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

Dagger Specialization
Rank 4/5
Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Daggers by 4%.

Dual Wield Specialization
Rank 4/5
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 40%.

Combat Total: 23
Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate
Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Malice
Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness
Rank 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Relentless Strikes
Rank 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality
Rank 5/5
Increases the damage done by your critical strikes by 50% when using the Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability.

Assassination Total: 17
Total
Total Points Spent: 48
Level Required: 57

With this setup you can either put your last three points towards getting Ghostly Strike, or you can put them towards Bladefurry or Riposte. The reason for going this route is more about damage potential. There is an additional 5% chance to crit, your offhand weapon will be doing normal weapon damage instead of 50% of weapon damage (assuming they add the 50% from the base DPS rather than the adjusted DPS, if that was the case, you would be doing 75% base damage rather than 50%).

Now then, if I really wanted to do something with subtlety then it would probably look more like:

Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception
Rank 5/5
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4).

Camouflage
Rank 5/5
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Opportunity
Rank 5/5
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

Initiative
Rank 5/5
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.

Improved Ambush
Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.

Improved Sap
Rank 3/3
Gives you a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.

Preparation
Rank 1/1
Instant cast 10 min cooldown
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.

Hemorrhage
Rank 1/1
35 Energy
Instant cast
5 yd range
Requires Melee Weapon
An instant strike that damages the opponent and causes the target to hemorrhage, increasing any Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 3. Lasts 30 charges or 15 sec. Awards 1 combo point.

Subtlety Total: 28
Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike
Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Lightning Reflexes
Rank 5/5
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.

Combat Total: 7
Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate
Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Malice
Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness
Rank 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Assassination Total: 11
Total
Total Points Spent: 46
Level Required: 55

The reason I put more points into the Assassination tree is because the passives there do more to improve damage at the level you are taking them to. The main thing to get if you are going for setup is going to be Lightning Reflexes. This will up your evade chance to something like 23ish% most likely. This template includes Ghostly Strike 1/1 and Setup 3/3 however, they both have a prereq on that calc that is no longer a prereq for them. The one good thing about this talent tree imo, is Hemorrage. It will add 7 dmg at rank three to every melee attack done to the target for up to 30 hits or 15 seconds. Also, my friend told me that it can be stacked, and used similar to SS. Your personal DPS will be less with this ability; however, if you have a few other melee classes assisting you I'm sure the overall dmg over time will be higher.

I guess it's just a personal thing though, I don't particularly like the subtlety tree, but I know others that totally love it.

[Fardomar]

Here is the route I am going.


Combat tree:


Lightning Reflexes 5/5

Deflection 5/5

Precision 5/5

Riposte 1/1

Dagger Spec 5/5





Assassination tree:



Improved Eviscerate 3/3

Remorseless Attacks 5/5

Malice 5/5

Ruthlessness 3/3

Murder 2/2

Relentless Strikes 1/1


Lethality 5/5


Cold Blood 1/1


Seal Fate 5/5


The only thing I am thinking about doing is moving the 5 points from Remorseless Attacks to the talent that adds 15% to poison damage.


Sirion what do you think about Remorseless Attacks? Once it goes up is it on a timer? Either you use it within that time period or lose it type of thing? If that is the case may go the poison talent.

[SuperHelix]

Man, learning a new game, fun.

[Fardomar]

Yeah can't wait till we are all playing it.